I'm a little surprised to see .epub offered as a publisher's source format rather than the end product of a workflow. .epub's source markup is just XHTML, and XHTML is still largely based on loose semantics that could apply to any type of electronic document. I imagine most publishers would want a source format with a richer, more book-like vocabulary -- TEI or DocBook come to mind -- and only convert to something like .epub for distribution to an ebook reader.

Going from .epub to Y format -- where Y format is semantically richer than XHTML -- would be difficult to do automatically.

> What .epub really gives publishers is leverage.
> They can say to their vendors and channels,
> "ok, I'm now only giving you .epub and you
> better either provide software that reads .epub
> or provides an automatic conversion
> from .epub to Y format."

of course, they could do that with _any_ format...

-bowerbird

@bowerbird: Sure, but the point is that it's a "good enough" and transparent standard that publishers can agree on. If we all just assume ePub, then we can get on with more important things. When launching a new website, there's no discussion of what "format" to use -- HTML/CSS/JavaScript are assumed. ePub could be the same for book-style content.

i strongly disagree that epub is "good enough" right now
-- would you like me to go through all its shortcomings,
one by one, to demonstrate you are wrong about that? --
but even if i did agree that epub is "good enough", then
there are many other formats that are "good enough" too.

so if we would all "just assume" any one of them, we could
"get on with more important things"...

but premature optimization is not a good thing.

where are the free and open-source epub reader-programs?
where are the free and open-source epub authoring-tools?

we don't have many good solid ideas about what the _library_
of the future will look like, so how can we even decide what
variables we need to use to evaluate a format's effectiveness?

anyway, i'm sure the publishing industry will indeed settle
on some "standard", and i'm sure that it will be a format that
requires expensive authoring apps with steep learning curves,
so as to raise the cost of entry for all those new small upstart
publishing companies that want to take advantage of the new
level playing field, so i'd say that epub likely has a good shot.

but if you think the people out here doing research on formats
that can maximize the possibilities while minimizing the costs
are gonna _stop_ doing our work, just because "the industry"
has decided on _their_ "standard", i will say that you're wrong.

the dinosaurs passed a law. but the mammals ignored it...

-bowerbird

@bowerbird: Sure epub has shortcomings, but so does HTML and so does DocBook XML (or PDF for that matter), formats we use extensively here at O'Reilly. If the content producers don't push for adoption of an open standard, then I fear that a device will establish a de facto one, which is bad for publishers and in my opinion bad for readers. I disagree that we're headed for expensive authoring tools -- but I also don't see ePub as an authoring environment anymore than HTML. I see ePub as a delivery format. As for open source options, our engineers have (in collaboration with engineers at Adobe) developed new stylesheets for the DocBook XSL package to allow for ePub output from DocBook source.

As for open source options, our engineers have been collaborating with Adobe on new stylesheets for the DocBook XSL project to allow for ePub output from DocBook source. The initial work on that is complete and will be in the next release of the stylesheets, but you're welcome to check out the code from Subversion today.

bowerbird wrote:
> where are the free and open-source epub reader
> programs?

As you know, Adobe Digital Editions is free but not open-source. The FBReader project is the most widely-known open-source .epub reader.

> where are the free and open-source epub
> authoring-tools?

The wonderful part about the .epub standard is how trivial it is to make .epub files without any expensive authoring tools. The best introduction to that topic is Bob DuCharme's Creating epub files with nothing but free tools.

> a format that requires expensive authoring apps
> with steep learning curves, so as to raise the
> cost of entry for all those new small upstart
> publishing companies that want to take
> advantage of the new level playing field, so
> i'd say that epub likely has a good shot.

Just the opposite. Building an .epub delivery channel will be much easier for upstart publishers than any print channel.

docbook? oh boy, that gives me a good chuckle... :+)

adobe's digital-editions would be a respectable effort
if it had come from some hacker working by himself...
but one of the biggest software companies in the world?
well, it's kind of embarrassing...

fb-reader is quite an achievement, but it still hasn't
implemented the css part of xhtml/css, which means
it's about half-way to where it needs to be...

yeah, it's "trivial" to make .epub files with "nothing but
free tools" just as long as you're a whiz with xhtml/css,
which is exactly why i say the learning curve is too high.

i think the non-technoids will see things the way i do...
and i don't think you technoids will be able to sway them,
no matter how much you and i "debate" the situation here.

-bowerbird